TAPS Visits Amos J. Blake Museum in Fitzwilliam, NH

December 16, 2009 by admin  
Filed under Television

Bobby Elgee asked:


This article was written in response to a recent newspaper article (published in the Keene Sentinel, Keene, NH on Saturday, July 10, 2009) pertaining to The Atlantic Paranormal Society’s (TAPS) recent investigation of the Amos J. Blake House Museum in Fitzwilliam, NH, the museum of the Fitzwilliam Historical Society, and their intention to use the footage on their television show Ghost Hunters.

As a paranormal investigator, I have participated in three investigations at the Amos J. Blake House Museum. The group I am a member of was invited to investigate the location by the museum’s curator. I am aware of approximately six different paranormal groups that have investigated the site.

Though there are some indications of paranormal activity at the museum, all I have personally experienced is one cold spot, an unexplained voice, as well as capturing photographs of some strange mist. This is certainly not enough evidence to declare the place haunted by the standards of most paranormal investigators, however, we are all aware of the rarity of such phenomena and the difficulty of catching such phenomena on tape.

More recently, reports have been made of multiple apparitions, objects moving, and intelligent spirits haunting the location. These phenomena–as well as other strange events–have been reported by several groups, though most of these claims were made by Conscious Spirits Paranormal Group (CSPG), a team founded by the museums curator.

These events were documented on CSPG’s Web site as recently as Thursday July 8th. Upon review of the groups site on Monday July 13, all references to the Amos J. Blake House investigations had been removed, though there is documentation of the groups investigation of the location at the Web site of the Keene State Equinox, a local college newspaper.

There are several links– accessible via Google searches–to CSPG’s Web site that portray their involvement with this location.

It is unclear to me why this information was deleted. I certainly enjoyed following the reported activity and even though our group considered the purported “evidence” to be highly exaggerated–being more attentive to debunking then many groups–I found it very entertaining.

At this point in time, two of the few sites where I can find any significant documentation of paranormal activity at the museum is on Dark Nights Paranormal’s as well as ECTO Paranormal’s, two teams of competent and tech-savvy investigators based in the general area. There is at least one other Web site where documentation of an investigation of the museum is posted, however, the location is not being disclosed–though it was previously identified as such.

Apparently,there was a minor controversy involved with “Ghost Hunters,” filming at the location, as it was reported that the museum’s Board of Directors had no prior knowledge of the TAPS investigation of the museum. The newspaper article published several comments from a member of the board pertaining to this fact, and–as of the time this article was written–there is still appears to be some question as to who signed the release form that allowed the filming in the first place. The paper also reported that the curator of the museum–who participated in the filming–had no comment.

I find it interesting that the board had no prior knowledge of a film crew being invited to the location. It is also of interest to note that the curator of the museum is a former member of the group I am involved with. This individual left our group abruptly in February or March–and subsequently formed her own group–shortly after informing me that TAPS had contacted her and had expressed interest in setting up on the location. It was also at this time that the reports of purported paranormal activity at the location increased significantly.

It is clear to me that TAPS was interested in this location, and–at least according to the curator–that there was some contact going on during this time between them and the museum..

In an open query to the Board of Directors of the Fitzwilliam Historical Society, I would ask the them to consider the publicity that may be garnered from the location’s appearance on a national television show. In my experience, considering locations like the museum, publicity is a good thing.

Many similar sites have capitalized on such attention for monetary gain and recognition. The board will certainly want to consider how they are going to handle requests from individuals and groups wanting to complete paranormal investigations of the location–if you choose to allow them at all–as well as other recognition and media attention that arises from such an event.

Some places charge special fees for unique “haunted tours,” and others even arrange all-night ghost hunts. The U.S.S. Salem in Boston, MA, The Queen Mary in Long Beach, CA, and Waverly Hills Sanitorium in Louisville, KY are examples of locations that are earning revenue and recognition secondary to their haunted status, and are places where one can participate in a paranormal investigation, above and beyond taking a simple tour.

In general, I would say that most ghost hunters are a respectful bunch, and the good ones appreciate the historical significance of such locations, as well as the potential for any paranormal activity.

The Amos J. Blake House Museum is a wonderful example of a New England historical society museum with an interesting and varied collection of artifacts, and–in my mind–this fact FAR outstrips the possibility of any paranormal activity occurring there.

I have participated many paranormal investigations–and have experienced some very strange things–however, on a scale of 1 to 10 related to possible paranormal activity, I would rate the museum a 2 or 3. Considering its wonderful collection and the history contained within its walls, I would rate it a 10.

Of course TAPS, with their top-of-the-line equipment and considerable resources may certainly be more successful then an amateur ghost hunter such as myself when it comes to finding evidence of possible paranormal activity.

It is obvious to me that the board of the Fitzwilliam Historical Society needs to seriously consider if this is a direction they would like to move in, and how the museum got to this point in the first place–a national television show filming in the location, apparently without it’s knowledge and consent.

At this time, it appears that consent has been given, albeit in a method in which the board was not aware, and that the investigation will air on national television. The board should consider how they can take advantage of this. My guess is that the situation be viewed as a positive one, an opportunity to increase attention for the museum, possibly resulting in revenue that could be used to help maintain this historic location. It may also have the added benefit of drawing some tourism to the town of Fitzwilliam, and the Monadnock area in general.

Of course, the board could certainly decide to let the spirits rest as well.



I Used my EVP Machine!

December 10, 2009 by admin  
Filed under Uncategorized

Bobby Elgee asked:


 by Bobby Elgee; Sights Unseen Paranormal 

Today, I used my EVP machine and it recorded a ghost’s voice. I also utilized my Ghost Image Capture Device to take a picture of a ghost. Another investigator used an Electric Detector that picks up spirit energy. I also used my Indoor Battery-Powered Illuminator–fancily called ‘a torch’ by our friends across the pond–to light up some ghosts in a dark room. We also used an interesting invention, a Television Spirit Capture Device, which records video of dead people. Finally, we analyzed all this research data on a computer that is specifically set up with programs–like Photoshop and Itunes–that help to find ghosts. 

Does the above paragraph sound as asinine and ignorant to you as it does to me? Interestingly enough, there are ghost hunting teams that use language similar to what I’ve typed above. To me, reading a paragraph like this makes a couple of things painfully obvious: 

1. The person writing it has absolutely no technical expertise whatsoever. 

2. They aren’t even coming close to practicing debunking. For people like this, everything is a ghost. 

Sorry, for venting…the moral to this story is KNOW YOUR EQUIPMENT. I have a lot to learn, that’s why I do research, read my owner’s manuals, and depend on experts and consultants to help me research potential evidence. 

None of the technology used in ghost hunting was originally designed to find ghosts. Be accurate in your description of the equipment you use. Know what it was originally designed for, and the theory behind using it to detect possibly paranormal events. 

Otherwise, you risk looking like a fool. Not sure about you, but I’m enough of a goof ball as it is, so I like to cover all my bases. 

Now, you’ll have to excuse me because my Electoplasma Initiator/Personal Massager is ringing.

 



Take Me to the Other Side: Moral Responsibilities of Ghost Hunters as Related to Spirits and the Afterlife

December 9, 2009 by admin  
Filed under Metaphysics

Bobby Elgee asked:


This article is an open query to all ghost hunters, paranormal investigators, psychics, mediums, parapsychologists, and theologians regarding the possible moral obligations concerning assisting certain types of ghosts–as defined as the consciousness of deceased persons possibly trapped in the material realm–to move on to ‘the other side.’

I am an amateur paranormal investigator with limited experience and many questions cross my mind, not only about the research and gathering ‘evidence’ of the paranormal, but also questions related to the moral, ethical, and spiritual aspects of this endeavor.

My question is this:

Do we have an obligation to assist ghosts in their transition to ‘the other side’?

The question is based on a series of assumptions as follows.

1. Ghosts are the consciousness of deceased humans and certain ghosts are ‘stuck’ in the material realm.

2. Some ghosts may be unaware that they are ghosts and/or they are unable to muster the actions/steps necessary to ‘move on.’

3. There is something beyond the material realm. A place or state exists that is a natural and probably desirable next step, and getting there is  necessary to complete the spiritual evolution of these free-floating ‘minds’ called ghosts.

4.  Thus we, as the living, being knowledgeable of the condition of their existence–and theoretically having the tools to assist them in their spiritual evolution–should render this assistance.

The above assumptions possibly place us–as paranormal investigators and others concerned with the spiritual evolution of our species–in a unique position to be able to provide this assistance. If the assumptions above are true and/or you believe in ghosts, to not act based on these assumptions be could something akin to leaving Kitty Genovese bleeding on the street.

If you believe that people should be altruistic–that is being obligated and willing to help our fellow humans (and ghosts)–we should seriously consider this issue.

There is research that shows that humans can be altruistic. They certainly may demonstrate this trait. We operate in groups for the greater good and are social creatures. However, there is also social psychological research that demonstrates that we are very selfish, e.g. we may only clearly operate altruistically when it serves our own needs/ideals or that of our family. We may be unique in the animal kingdom considering our combination of altruistic and selfish traits. The discussion of  these psychological and sociological ideas certainly goes beyond the constrains of this article, but they do bear mentioning.

So, when considering this question, one has to look deep into oneself and society and consider whether your answer to the question is self-serving or genuinely altruistic.

Considering the popular television show Ghost Hunters, rarely do they televise cleansing efforts, involve religious authorities or psychics specific to this issue, and it appears that their activities in regards to their clients mostly involve educating their clients to paranormal phenomena with the tenet that knowledge reduces fear–and that there is really nothing to fear. At least for the humans involved.

This is just on the surface, and TAPS (The Atlantic Paranormal Society) certainly provides more services than is discernable from their television show and  has demonstrated the capability to provide referrals to professionals and experts capable of operating under the assumptions I mentioned earlier.

Anyone that has done any background research on Grant, Jason, and Steve–the force behind TAPS– realizes that their paranormal experiences far exceeds what is able to be shown in an hour television show. For all the commercialization and debates to as to whether the ‘evidence’ they present is valid, they do deserve immense credit to bringing the realm of the paranormal–and implications on the spiritual evolution of the human race–to light and educating the general public in regards to these type of phenomena as genuine and legitimate human experiences.

Other television shows have a bent that lends themselves more toward addressing the possible  moral and ethical responsibilities that this article is questioning. Paranormal State, the team of young investigators and paranormal entrepreneurs from Penn State, definitely deserves credit for bringing this issue more to light and embracing a wider spirituality that underlies the entire endeavor.

Both groups, Ghost Hunters and Paranormal State, are clearly human-centric. The living are more important then the dead. Their needs take precedent, being the primary needs in any case. This is a premise I have to believe, as my belief in ghosts and the afterlife are unresolved at best. If a child is scared, or an adult is being tormented by paranormal experiences, the impact on their quality of life is obvious. Why the supposed ‘ghosts’ are exhibiting this ‘behavior’ is always secondary to the needs of the living..

Are we ****** against ghosts? Do we neglect their needs in support of the living? Absolutely, but this is the way it is. There is a conscious and unconscious assigning of priorities in any paranormal investigation, and whether we are ‘racists’ considering ghosts is fodder for another article, the implications of which are not discussed here.

I take this type of bias as possible indication of genuine altruism exhibited by the human race. It is one of the ways that demonstrates that we, as living humans, are part of the same family. Ghosts, by definition, are not, though perhaps they once were. Thus ghosts become the second-class citizens of any paranormal investigation. Though ghosts are the reason we’re investigating in the first place, in reality they are not. We are investigating for us, and sometimes ghosts are treated like nothing more then strange animals in a zoo where we go to gawk. Again, these issues are very interesting, but beyond the bounds of this article.

So, we come back to the original question:

Do we have an obligation to help ghosts move to the other side?

Consider the following series of questions which represent a potential can of worms related to the question above.

1. What if some ghosts choose to stay?

There are documented cases of people who are alive, astrally traveling or presumably engaging in ESP and appearing as apparitions to people, family members, or even complete strangers. How do you determine the difference between this phenomena and that of a  haunting?

Then we would need to determine the difference between a residual haunting and an intelligent haunting, assuming that residual haunting is not caused by a conscious spirit.

What’s left may be an intelligent haunting. If so, how would we decide if the ghost wants to be here, or that it doesn’t know it is trapped? What if the ghost knows it’s trapped, and believes that the other side is hell? Again, we have a can of worms here which may place us–as paranormal investigators–casting judgements that have already been decided by the concepts of God across a variety of religions.

2. How do we determine the reasons why an intelligent ghost is staying?  How do we decide those reasons presumably using the tools we have now?

3. Once we’ve determined the answers to #1 and #2, what do we do next? How do we decide which ghosts to help, and those that don’t need or want our help? What tactics do we employ to accomplish this?

So, we are left with a series of questions that are very important, addressing the basic premise of what it is to be human–and to be a ghost–and our obligations and responsibilities as to what that means. Ranging from theology, spirituality, psychology, to the tactics of ghost hunting, this “hobby” certainly generates questions–and possibly answers–that may affect all of the human race.

I have no answers, only questions. However, in my quest to become a more competent paranormal investigator, I believe the techniques and technology are the relatively easy questions to address. The questions behind why we are employing such tactics–the difficult part in my opinion–and our eventual goals become very important for all ghost hunters to consider.

I firmly believe that we cannot flail blindly in the dark when dealing with such questions. I think, whether we believe in ghosts or not, we do have an obligation to help them if they need it. Not to do so makes you less human in my opinion. And, I feel that many groups neglect these questions or when they are addressed, it is done so in an cursory and self-serving way. I certainly do not exempt myself from this, and perhaps writing this makes me a hypocrite.

In my opinion, there are many obstacles in the way of developing any type of consensus in these matters. One of the main obstacles is inconsistent use of language and even a basic ignorance, and perhaps disagreement, in regards to various terminology.

For example, many groups state that their goal is to find proof of the paranormal. This is a misnomer. The fact is that paranormal phenomena does exist. I define paranormal as something that is currently unexplainable by science. There is plenty of phenomena that is unexplainable by science, as every scientist will tell you.

One needs to clearly define the words they are using if they pretend they are doing something remotely resembling scientific research. If everyone uses the same word in a different way, no one has any idea what anyone is talking about. In scientific research, one doesn’t generally have to worry about this. In the field of paranormal investigation, I feel this problem is pervasive.

Some groups clearly state that their goal is to prove the existence of the afterlife or life after death. These groups come more closely to presenting themselves in a way that elucidates their goals. But what exactly are their goals?

Lets be frank, no one is probably ever going to prove the existence of the afterlife in the foreseeable future. A lofty goal, sure, but one in all likelihood is probably  unobtainable. Setting realistic goals is important in any endeavor, and ghost hunting is no different. Perhaps setting such an all encompassing goal undermines the method, and the ability to work toward obtaining this goal.

Running around, taking strange photographs, capturing audio of unexplained voices, and documenting cold spots and spikes in EMF activity may not be advancing the body of knowledge toward proving the afterlife in any meaningful way. However, at this point, these are some the most popular tools we have.

If you do want to prove the existence of the afterlife, and you capture some evidence of what you feel is a ghost, how come most people just walk away from it? They put the picture on their Web site and show it off, with little regard to the ghost itself. Even worse then that, they may return to the location–even bringing in more investigators–in an attempt to capture further ‘evidence.’ And yet, what is done as far as attempts to determine why the ‘ghost’ is there and what can be done to help it’s spiritual evolution? Again, this unfortunate spirit is reduced to an exhibit, a zoo animal, and something to be harassed.

There has to be more then that, and as a ghost hunter or paranormal investigator, especially if you believe in ghosts, you should do something about it, and hopefully something that will help on a spiritual level. Otherwise, in my opinion, you are nothing better then a tourist and an amateur, and are solely thinking of your own needs and desires. In other words, you are being self-serving.

Many groups are very committed to debunking. In my mind, these groups have less of an obligation to assist these disembodied spirits. For myself, I am not convinced of the existence of ghosts. The paranormal phenomena I have captured evidence of is simply that in my mind. It’s paranormal–unexplained by science. Subsequently calling such phenomena a ghost is a leap of faith I can’t make with any degree of certainty at this time. Thus, I’m fairly comfortable not attaching any spiritual implications or obligations to any such phenomena.

Until I am actually convinced that there are such things as ghosts, I don’t necessarily feel any obligation to take further steps beyond just trying to figure out what “it” is. However, I do articulate this, and don’t run around identifying such phenomena as ghosts, then do nothing about it. Also, I do work with people who study these aspects of paranormal investigations, and feel that they have the skills to address these aspects if necessary.

Of course, I may be wrong and self-serving and–in an effort to justify my actions and reconcile them with my thoughts and opinions on the subject–may be neglecting a very important piece of the puzzle. In fact, I have a nagging feeling in the back of my head this may be the very case.

Given the original premise of this article, ghost hunters become elevated to a unique group– a group who has to have an understanding of human psychology, culture, and spirituality, and be able to offer advice and take action concerning a spirits spiritual well-being.

The field of paranormal investigation will evolved only  if people consider the basic questions, motivations, and drives beyond just capturing evidence. Look at the original question underneath it all…why do we do this?

To take a basic tenet of ethics, one must first do no harm. Regardless of whether ghosts exist–and by default this implies the existence of an afterlife–I sincerely don’t believe that most paranormal investigators are causing any harm. But if one does consider the spiritual implications regarding helping a trapped spirit, we are acting on a body of imperfect knowledge, and thus by doing so, perhaps could cause harm if we aren’t very careful and thoughtful in our methods.

So, are there any answers in this article? Probably not, but there are many questions and the half-baked musings of an amateur ghost hunter who may just be in over his head.



“Evidence” of the Paranormal and Ghosts

July 30, 2009 by admin  
Filed under Spirituality

Bobby Elgee asked:


by Bobby Elgee, Sights Unseen Paranormal



Ghost hunting is not a science. Out of all the individuals and/or groups of ghost hunters in existence, very, very few actually have any experience with the scientific method or have any experience actually conducting experimental research.

Still, many groups will tell you that they have photos and audio of what are spirits; evidence of ghosts. As far as I am aware, there is no scientific evidence of the existence of ghosts or an afterlife. That is a question of faith at this point in time. If somebody knows something I don’t, please let me know!

As the member of a group whose members actually have some background conducting scientific research, I realize that ghost hunting doesn’t lend itself to a well-controlled scientific experiment. The methodologies are weak, the equipment used was never originally designed to detect ghosts, and it is nearly impossible to replicate the results.

Even more perturbing is the fact that certain groups are damaging the credibility of legitimate and accomplished paranormal researchers and parapsychologists by posting photographs that are easily dismissed as well-known and easily identifiable camera malfunctions and other artifacts of the photographic process.

Capturing a photograph of an orb or strange mist is just that. A photograph of a strange orb or mist. Competent paranormal investigators will attempt to rule out the anomaly….is it a reflection? Is it a bug? Is it dust? Is it condensation on the lens of the camera? Is it a problem with the developing and/or printing process? The logical possibilities are nearly endless, and yet, certain people will make a claim that “it’s a spirit orb,” or that the mist is representative of “the paranormal energy of the ghost that haunts the” location.

We try and look at our “evidence” with a critical eye, and include the use of accomplished photo consultants in an attempt to rule out all rational explanations. What we can’t explain means simply that, we can’t explain it. If we’ve done a good job ruling out everything, we may just be left with something paranormal.

Remember that the word ‘paranormal’ simply means ‘not scientifically explainable.’

That’s it. To take the next step and call a possibly paranormal photograph a picture of a ghost is a leap of faith that I, personally, can’t swallow. A person can certainly make that statement, but at that point it becomes an opinion, a statement based on belief and faith. I mean, it just as well could be a picture of a 1957 Chevy or Fred Flintstone. At that point, I can choose what I believe. There’s simply no evidence backing it up.

Our group members have varying beliefs. There is one thing we all agree with however….we’re never going to call a picture of a camera strap a “vortex through which spirits can enter our material realm” or a photograph of an orb “a spirit orb which shows a ghost trying to manifest itself.”

This is simply too big a stretch of illogical rationalization in our minds.

I’ve been a member of a group where, to be a member, you had to believe in ghosts! We’ve also had members in this group to whom every cold draft, every sound, and every strange photograph was a ghost, regardless of whether the phenomena was debunked or not.

We like to have fun, and our belief’s evolve everyday, but we feel that we have to be careful and measured in our response to what we call ‘evidence.’ 99% of the pictures we post on our Web site don’t contain anything paranormal. Capturing actual paranormal activity in photographs is quite rare. Also, the majority of EVPs can be debunked or certainly explained away by skeptics as something other then the voices of dead people. We post things of interest and for entertainment, but you won’t catch us calling something a ghost. To be quite honest, there are only two or three pieces of “evidence” I have captured over the years that I can say with near certainty are paranormal–unexplainable by conventional science.

As far as myself, I can definitely say I’ve experienced paranormal phenomena, phenomena that is unexplainable by science. As to what caused this phenomena, well, I can’t say. It’s simply unexplainable in my mind.

This is a hobby for us, and we like to have fun with it, and we don’t take ourselves too seriously, but, at the same point, however, in the spirit of transparency, we feel we have an obligation to call a spade a spade.

Sights Unseen Paranormal



Conscious Spirits: Paranormal Groups and Anthropormorphization

May 4, 2009 by admin  
Filed under Metaphysics

Bobby Elgee asked:


by Bobby Elgee, Sights Unseen Paranormal 

Many paranormal groups will detail the difference between two types of hauntings–residual and intelligent. Without going into a great degree of detail, residual hauntings are like a tape recorder that periodically plays for a variety of supposed reasons, while intelligent hauntings imply some degree of consciousness and interaction with the environment, including the people that encounter them. The goal of this article is not to go into a myriad of details regarding the specifics of these two types of hauntings, or necessarily, how to tell the difference. Instead, I’d like to discuss people’s propensity to attribute human characteristics to things that aren’t human. Consider the following definition, taken straight from Merriem-Websters 11th Collegiate Dictonary: 

anthropomorphize 

Main Entry: 

an·thro·po·mor·phize 

Function: verb 

Inflected Form(s): 

an·thro·po·mor·phized; an·thro·po·mor·phiz·ing 

Date: 1845 

transitive verb 

: to attribute human form or personality to 

intransitive verb 

: to attribute human form or personality to things not human 

— an·thro·po·mor·phi·za·tion  noun 

If you are a human being, you have a natural tendency to do this. It’s part of being human, much like recognizing faces in ambiguous visual stimuli; a wonderful ability afforded us by the most spectacular of all organs–our brains. The question is, how does one do this accurately in the realm of paranormal investigation? 

It’s natural for humans to be self-centered or egocentric. If something happened, its probably related to you, and perhaps is because of something you did. Ask a child of a certain age “Why does the sun come up?” and they will answer with some variation of “Because I got up.” It is simply a developmental stage that–hopefully–we all outgrow. 

But, to me, it seems that we may revert to earlier developmental stages when analyzing paranormal phenomena. Consider the following hypothetical questions and answers…. 

Why did that mist show up in a picture? 

It was a ghost trying to show itself to me. 

Why did those plates fall off the counter? 

A ghost was trying to get my attention. 

Why are the dowsing rods moving? 

A spirit is spinning them around in answer to your questions. 

Why did my EMF detector spike when there’s no electrical source around? 

A spirit is attempting to make contact with us. 

Why did this cold spot materialize? 

A ghost is trying to manifest, and tell me it’s here. 

Why did that door slam? 

The spirits are upset that we’re here. 

What is the cat looking at? 

A ghost, animals can see things that we can’t, and the ghost is trying to communicate with it.. 

The questions could certainly apply to many paranormal investigations I’ve been on. The answers however, show a clear indication of anthropormorphism–in addition to a lack of a debunking attempt. Their is no indication from the events that this is an intelligent haunting, and yet the person answering the question automatically makes it a conscious spirit interacting with the investigator. In addition, they are clearly ascribing human attributes to something non-human, in this case, a bunch of environmental observations. 

Whether such things are paranormal–not explainable by science–may be determined in the context of a careful investigation. Whether they were caused by a spirit or ghost can certainly never be proven, regardless of whether it is a residual or intelligent haunting. 

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we all need to fight against our basic human propensity to anthropormorphize. I feel it can sabotage an investigation, causing investigators to loose focus and pigeon-hole data into their belief system, and, perhaps, even cause people to miss potentially relevant events. 

So, unless a full-bodied apparition materializes in front of you in period dress, tells you it’s a ghost, and then offers to play a game of cards with you, be very careful about calling anything an intelligent haunting. The events that occurred are probably not paranormal to begin with. To make them into a ghost interacting with you is quite a stretch. 

Have I been in haunted places where I felt that a presence was interacting with the team? Absolutely! Have I recorded EVPs that respond to an investigators questions in a specific manner? Yes, albeit rarely. 

Assigning attributes such as *** and personality traits–as well as motivations–to paranormal phenomena is a slippery slope. I prefer to leave that stuff up to competent psychics–which are very, very rare.